IceAero
Shadow Company
8
Issue
CCP planned to give us 5th subsystems for the T3 cruisers...Clearly this didn't happen, and I believe it was related to there simply not being any more roles that they wanted the ships to fill without making recons and HACs obsolete.
SolutionGive us 'pirate' subsystems for each of the cruisers. These would mimic the standard pirate roles, and have bonuses that reflect these ships. Subsystems would require 2x the materials to build, a faction cruiser BPC, and a chance that the faction cruise BPC is consumed in the process of making the faction subsystem BPC.
These will use existing models for each subsystems, with the pirate faction's texture.
HOW TO MAKE THESEBILL OF MATERIALS IS DOUBLED FOR ALL FACTION SUBSYSTEMS
Option 1:
---Add a 1 run faction cruiser BPC is added to the reverse engineering process. The subsystem is picked at random and if the blueprint is present, then the faction subsystem BPC is made.
---25% chance that the blueprint is consumed
Option 2:
---Add a repackaged faction cruiser to the reverse engineering process. The chance of the faction subsystem is reduced from 100% to 50%.
---15% chance that the ship is consumed in the process
UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED, all pirate subsystems retain stats of the base version
Pirate subsystems require two racial subsystem skills at lvl 5:
True Sansha:Amarr & Caldari
Dark Blood: Amarr & Minmatar
Shadow Serpentis: Gallente & Minmatar
Guristas: Caldari & Gallente
Dominaiton: Minmatar & Gallente
Legion:
Defensive - True Sansha Adaptive Shielding- 10% bonus to shield hitpoints per level.
- 3500 Shield HP
- 3000 Armor HP
- +1 mid slot
- +1 low slot
- 160m radius
[Need to balanced recharge time]Offensive - True Sansha Liquid Crystal Magnifiers
- 5% bonus to medium energy turret damage per level
- 7.5% bonus to medium energy turret tracking per level
- 3 turret hardpoints
Note: 100% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damageEngineering - Dark Blood Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
- 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer range per level
- 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per level
- No hardpoint additions
- 1200 PG or 1290 PGElectronics - Dark Blood Tactical Targeting Network
- 15% bonus to scan resolution per leve
- 5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness per levelPropulsion - Dark Blood Fuel Catalyst
- 15% bonus to afterburner speed per level.
Proteus
Defensive - Shadow Serpentis Augmented Plating- 15% bonus to armor HP per levelOffensive - Shadow Serpentis Dissonic Encoding Platform
- 15% bonus to hybrid damage per level
- 7.5% bonus to medium hybrid turret tracking per level
- NO Falloff bonus
- 5 light drones, 25m^3 drone spaceEngineering - Shadow Serpentis Power Core Multiplier
- +2 high slots
- +1 low slot
- 2 turret hardpointsPropulsion - Shadow Serpentis Wake Limiter
- 5% reduction in microwarpdrive signature radius penalty per level.
- 5% increase to MicroWarpdrive capacitor bonus per level
- 150m/s base speedElectronics - Shadow Serpentis Cpu Efficiency Gate
- 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level
- 5% bonus to CPU per level
Tengu
Coming later today
Loki
Coming later today
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Perkone
Caldari State
27
Tengu... something to do with a fat drone increase ala Worm/Gile/Rattlesnake :)
Sebastion Heorod
State Protectorate
Caldari State
1
since there are no sleepers in null sec shouldn't these subsystems be available in the same matter as the current pirate faction ships, as an upgrade to a currently existing empire subsystem from the pirate lp store
IceAero
Shadow Company
9
Sebastion Heorod wrote:
since there are no sleepers in null sec shouldn't these subsystems be available in the same matter as the current pirate faction ships, as an upgrade to a currently existing empire subsystem from the pirate lp store
That is definitely one option! I went with something more tied into the current production. Certainly there are no sleepers in 0.0, but the idea is that the pirate factions have been studying the sleepers also, and working on reverse engineering them, so these complex are those sites that you rob their data from.
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
171
I won't go into the details of build requirements and specific modifications granted by the subsystems (and to be honest, even if this was taken on by CCP they're more likely to take the overall concept and make their own version, rather than implementing the specifics of your suggestion), but pirate subsystems are one interesting way of finally tying up the loose ends of the T3 cruiser range, so I approve of the idea in a vague sort of way.
Fun possibility: Faction subsystems can be used by the T3 cruiser of either of the two 'parent' empire factions of that pirate faction: eg a Guristas subsystem can be fitted to both the Tengu and the Proteus.
IceAero
Shadow Company
9
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Fun possibility: Faction subsystems can be used by the T3 cruiser of either of the two 'parent' empire factions of that pirate faction: eg a Guristas subsystem can be fitted to both the Tengu and the Proteus.
I really like this idea and I've really liked it for a while now, but it believe it would be difficult...what model would these use? Fitting the Sansha liquid crystal magnifiers on a caldari ship would be awesome, but it would need to have a different model when on the Tengu or the Legion.
Just seems more simple to have 5 faction subsystems for each ship and leave it at that.
IceAero
Shadow Company
9
The Legion will get strong shields and slightly more total dps with no range bonus (but only 3 or 4 turrets)
The Legion will also get a small range bonus for nos/neuts, and a tracking disruptor bonus
The Legion will also get a bigger bonus to AB boost
The Proteus will be able to have more armor, do more hybrid damage, with no falloff bonus,
The Proteus will gain 25mbits with the powergrid subsystem.
The Proteus will gain a small bonus to stasis webifier strength.
The Proteus also gains the MWD cap bonus from the deimos/thorax
The Tengu will retain the 5% shield resistance bonus, but gain shield HP and a midslot that was previously a high slot.
The Tengu will lose a lot of missile DPS and its kinetic bonus, but gain 2 heavy drones or 5 mediums
The Tengu will gain another 2 heavy drones from the engineering subsystem
The Tengu will get an ECM strength bonus instead of a range bonus so it can multi-task better
The Tengu will also get a bigger bonus to AB boost
The Loki will gain about 10% more speed
The Loki will gain a bonus to target painters
The Loki will gain a projectile damage bonus but lose its drones
The Loki will gain a midslot for shield tanking that was previously a high slot
Elindreal
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
41
interesting idea but uhh..
pirates have nothing to do with wormhole space!
Nestara Aldent
EVE University
Ivy League
11
Pirates can reverse engineer empire technology. Or get the blueprints by some other way.
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions
Reckless Ambition
79
IceAero wrote:
[...]
- New radar sites are created in
Low Sec.[...]
Fixed, but aside from that, liked.
I A/F/K cloak in Jita. Does that count?IceAero
Shadow Company
10
Lyrrashae wrote:
IceAero wrote:
[...]
- New radar sites are created in
Low Sec.[...]
Fixed, but aside from that, liked.
Opps, yes!
Well, I'd think they should be in low sec and in 0.0. It only makes sense to have the specific sites in areas populated by those specific pirates.
Elindreal wrote:
interesting idea but uhh..
pirates have nothing to do with wormhole space!
Pirates live in 0.0...so why would they not have at least explored them? T3 ships are very popular and these pirate factions have previously had the top ships in the whole game, so I think there is incentive for them to get into this.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
18
Everyone would like a few more subsystems and it is a good idea to use existing models with an applied texture.
I am unsure whether they should just be better than the existing subsystems. Some of your choices apply certain pirate bonuses making them different to the existing subs (I support this) but some just seem like improved versions.
Given that the existing subsystems still require a lot of balancing this would need to be done together and I still feel these new subs should provide additional choices rather than just being better as this seems a recipe for being overpowered.
I would be more inclined to support a few key subs being released for each ship rather than trying to force something into every category.
IceAero
Shadow Company
10
Alticus C Bear wrote:
Everyone would like a few more subsystems and it is a good idea to use existing models with an applied texture.
I am unsure whether they should just be better than the existing subsystems. Some of your choices apply certain pirate bonuses making them different to the existing subs (I support this) but some just seem like improved versions.
Given that the existing subsystems still require a lot of balancing this would need to be done together and I still feel these new subs should provide additional choices rather than just being better as this seems a recipe for being overpowered.
I would be more inclined to support a few key subs being released for each ship rather than trying to force something into every category.
I agree with some of what you said.
Some of these
are just 'improved' because the pirate versions of T1 ships are in some ways just 'improved' The Vindicator is just a mega with more damage, more armor, and more PG. The only 'special' bonus associated with Serpentis ships is an increase in webifier strength. I attempted to take these 'pirate modifications' to the proteus as well...The armor subsystem gives a bit more armor, the offensive sub deals more damage (with a bonus removed to be more fair), the webifier strength is there.I will say that there's really Nothing to be done with the propulsion subs, but the idea of having 4 types and not a 5 (thereby removing the ability to have a 'complete' pirate t3 ship) doesn't work. My worry is that the bonus to AB strength just isn't going to be preferred, especially in PVP, and no one will even bother to make complete pirate version with these propulsion mods.
Nestara Aldent
EVE University
Ivy League
11
Solution for that problem is easy.
Subsystem isn't really what's depicted in the game, front or middle or back section of the ship. It's ofc more complex (for e. that bonused armor plating covers the whole ship).
Because actually pirate ship texture is matter of preference, we could be given the option to apply it to the whole ship with just one of the pirate subsystems present.
IceAero
Shadow Company
10
Nestara Aldent wrote:
Solution for that problem is easy.
Subsystem isn't really what's depicted in the game, front or middle or back section of the ship. It's ofc more complex (for e. that bonused armor plating covers the whole ship).
Because actually pirate ship texture is matter of preference, we could be given the option to apply it to the whole ship with just one of the pirate subsystems present.
Probably right about that. I can see there being good reason for there not being pirate propulsion subsystems
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
27
Ok I am a Proteus pilot so have really only considered those subsystems and tried to balance them so they are not better (Although I suspect hey might be still) but how about something like these.
Proteus
Defensive - Shadow Serpentis Augmented Plating (less overall EHP than other sub but should be faster)
- 5% bonus to armor HP per level
-15% reduction in the mass of armor plates per level
Offensive - Shadow Serpentis Dissonic Encoding Platform
- 15% bonus to hybrid damage per level
- 5% bonus to medium hybrid turret tracking per level
- NO Falloff bonus
Engineering - Shadow Serpentis Augmented Capacitor Resevoir (no sixth turret, but helps all prop subs)
- 10% increase to microwarpdrive capacitor bonus per level
- 25mbit, 25m^3 Drone Bay
Electronics - Shadow Serpentis Cpu Efficiency Gate
- 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level
Propulsion - Shadow Serpentis Gravitational Capacitor
- 15% Bonus to afterburner/microwarpdrive speed per level. (This subsystem has a lower base speed anyway and swaps a low for a mid)
- No other bonuses
IceAero
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
12
Alticus C Bear wrote:
Ok I am a Proteus pilot so have really only considered those subsystems and tried to balance them so they are not better (Although I suspect hey might be still) but how about something like these.
Proteus
Defensive - Shadow Serpentis Augmented Plating (less overall EHP than other sub but should be faster)
- 5% bonus to armor HP per level
-15% reduction in the mass of armor plates per level
Offensive - Shadow Serpentis Dissonic Encoding Platform
- 15% bonus to hybrid damage per level
- 5% bonus to medium hybrid turret tracking per level
- NO Falloff bonus
Engineering - Shadow Serpentis Augmented Capacitor Resevoir (no sixth turret, but helps all prop subs)
- 10% increase to microwarpdrive capacitor bonus per level
- 25mbit, 25m^3 Drone Bay
Electronics - Shadow Serpentis Cpu Efficiency Gate
- 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level
Propulsion - Shadow Serpentis Gravitational Capacitor
- 15% Bonus to afterburner/microwarpdrive speed per level. (This subsystem has a lower base speed anyway and swaps a low for a mid)
- No other bonuses
I'm not sure I like the idea of Removing the bonuses that they had to start with...
Also, the mass bonus of the defensive subsystem is just made up, doesn't reflect the 'serpentis' idea. (All their ships really do have a lot more armor than the t1 versions)
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
27
I did not realise you were expecting them to compare as Pirate faction does to T1 (overpowered) but as Pirate Faction compares to T2. If you look at the Vigilant and Deimos as versions of the Thorax then you will see that the Deimos has higher Armour EHP (less Hit points but has T2 resists) the Vigilant on the other hand has a slower base speed but is faster when plated and using a microwarpdrive.
The Vigilant is faster more agile and has a slight DPS advantage but not the EHP of the Deimos and it has a useful four mid profile. Also Serpentis mods are generally in the propulsion category (plus Armour,hybrid and sensor damps) and Snakes provide a speed boost so my feeling of Serpentis Proteus was a faster more agile ship rather than EHP Brick.
They were just ideas, removing some of the existing bonuses and replacing them I felt did not make the other subsystems completely obsolete especially as It would be wise to boost any weak subsystems if any new fifth subsystems were introduced.
IceAero
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
12
Alticus C Bear wrote:
I did not realise you were expecting them to compare as Pirate faction does to T1 (overpowered) but as Pirate Faction compares to T2. If you look at the Vigilant and Deimos as versions of the Thorax then you will see that the Deimos has higher Armour EHP (less Hit points but has T2 resists) the Vigilant on the other hand has a slower base speed but is faster when plated and using a microwarpdrive.
The Vigilant is faster more agile and has a slight DPS advantage but not the EHP of the Deimos and it has a useful four mid profile. Also Serpentis mods are generally in the propulsion category (plus Armour,hybrid and sensor damps) and Snakes provide a speed boost so my feeling of Serpentis Proteus was a faster more agile ship rather than EHP Brick.
They were just ideas, removing some of the existing bonuses and replacing them I felt did not make the other subsystems completely obsolete especially as It would be wise to boost any weak subsystems if any new fifth subsystems were introduced.
There is certainly a discrepancy between whether or not the goal is to 'compare' to T1 or T2, and honestly I don't even want to go down that route. The T2 versions are 'inspired' by their roles and their corporate creators, and Should have better bonuses to their specific roles.
I do believe that if we get 5th subsystems using the philosophy that I proposed that they Should be better than their standard t3 counterparts. They are going to cost more, and (depending on drop rates in radar sites and such) be rare. I would love to see some of the weaker subsystems have their bonuses adjusted. In fact, I think this is even more important than giving us a 5th set to work with. It cannot be too difficult to scour the market data and see that certain subsystems are simply NOT used. Not at all. Even easier than finding this out, is fixing it. A slight boost to their attributes would be enough, plain and simple.
Regardless of that issue, I believe introducing these pirate subsystems adds a great deal to the diversity of the whole t3 idea. It falls in line with the story and universe of EVE and with the idea that spending a bit more on 'rare' items gives you a slight advantage. Fitting any of these pirate subs to a t3 ship is going to increase the cost by at least 50m and give you one little advantage over any other similarly fit T3 ship. Nothing that would instantly cause you to win, but certainly give you something. Taken to the extreme, players would be able to make complete pirate t3 ships, at a cost of at least 300m ontop of the existing t3 price and have a ship with a Much higher level of diversity, (hopefully) without making them outright overpowered. A proteus will 10% more dps and armor will win a 1v1 against a normal proteus much more often, but isn't going to change the odd more than spending that isk on other faction/pirate mods would. That's the idea. No idea if I achieved that, but it would be a great goal and direction for future t3 expansions.
